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You don't have a god in you, you are one. -- The Force of Love audiotape, 1987 |
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by Virgil Vaduva An article by my dear friend Jared Coleman was posted here recently and I promised a response in the spirit of generosity rather than criticism and debate. Jared’s article was more a description of his journey and the place where he is now, which is a place where he has become not only disenchanted with Christianity but has become convinced that God may not even exist at all. And while Jared’s article was not meant to be scholarly or not even an attempt by him to convince anyone of his position, I wanted to answer some of his concerns and issues he brought up in the hope that I can touch his heart and perhaps simply let him know that he is not the first or the only one to struggle with the problems he mentioned.
Writing this article was a strange experience, mostly because for the past few days I continuously ran across atheism-related issues, something which never happens to me, but it’s another link in the strange chain of events I’ve experienced lately. This (hopefully) wraps up a “twilight-year” for our family. A year ago I was in a major car accident and I have been in constant back pain since; then I find out that someone I really respect is leaving his wife and his family for another woman, and then someone else I know is seemingly on the brink of doing the same thing; for whatever reason I got passed over for a major promotion at work, after which our three month old unborn baby was lost; then to top it all off, I hear that a very good friend of mine has turned to atheism.
As incredulous as it may sound, perhaps the God of the gaps is speaking somehow? But what the heck is he saying, because I can’t make anything out; if anything, it sounds like “stop moving you bug, you are messing up my maniacal magnifying glass game!”
First, I admire Jared for being willing to share his article with all the folks reading this website. It takes a lot of courage to open up as he did before a bunch of people like us, knowing that we will rip everything he wrote apart in order to find something wrong with what he said, mock him or opportunistically use his words to prove each other wrong.
Secondly, while I am not trying to slam Jared for being wrong, I do want to hold his feet to the fire for some statements he is making, otherwise his approach would be a hit-and-run, and nobody likes dealing with that kind of stuff.
The third point is that this article is not for Jared alone; it is for everyone who struggles with those issues. I am not arrogant enough to pretend I have all the answers but I hope I have some. Admitting to have doubts and struggles is the first step towards getting help, and we all need it.
Recently I was browsing through the unending list of TV channels and I stopped for a few minutes to watch the legendary Braveheart, starring Mel Gibson. I have seen this film a couple of times and I just happened to tune in when Isabella, the French princess of England was discussing the Wallace rebellion with her aide Nicolette, when she was being told that Scotland was in chaos because a Scot wanted to avenge the death of his lover:
Nicolette: Et cacha le cadavre de sa bien-aimé dans un endroit secret. Ça c'est l'amour non? (He fought his way through the trap and carried her body to a secret place. Now that's love, no?)
Isabella (resting her head against a column and looking at the skies): De l'amour? J'en sais rien. (Love? I wouldn't know)
The princess of England, one of the most powerful women in the world was enchanted by Wallace’s story of love; a man pursuing the impossible to fight for his dead lover. She did not have the love of Wallace as a princess, because she did not know love, in that nobody loved her passionately as Wallace loved his fiancée. What a mystery to be charmed by! And of course, it’s by no accident that a discussion about amour it taking place in French, the language of love and lovers! But I’ll get back to this later.
In his article, Jared justifies his slide into atheism with a mixture of self-realization, lack of progress, materialized doubts, and empirical observations about Bonhoeffer’s God of the gaps (which is not really Bonhoeffer’s) that is slowly shrinking into nothingness as a result of scientific progress. When labeling himself, Jared even borrows from Derrida saying that “he rightly passes for an atheist.” But Jared is only focusing on one side of the argument, namely the unknown. People like Henry Drummond and Dietrich Bonhoeffer himself already dealt with this well enough, although defensively. Bonhoeffer wrote: “How wrong it is to use God as a stop-gap for the incompleteness of our knowledge. If in fact the frontiers of knowledge are being pushed further and further back (and that is bound to be the case), then God is being pushed back with them, and is therefore continually in retreat. We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know; God wants us to realize his presence, not in unsolved problems but in those that are solved”[1]
But even if I grant Jared the “gaps theory” I cannot see a problem; as I already mentioned to him in a previous comment, the gaps we face are in a very real sense the same doubts and mysteries which we have faced as humans from the beginning of our existence. Relegating God to the mysterious or even to the “doubtful” is not something new or something to lose faith over. The doubts and mystery therefore are nothing to fear, but are what we need to embrace, whether or not we find God in them. This compliments Bonhoeffer’s position well giving us a comprehensive perspective of the contemporary, whenever the contemporary may be, so paradoxically there are answers in the unknown, not necessarily religion. Famed philosopher Petre Tutea also dealt with this effectively: “Mystery represents the only form which frees me from the personal struggles, the cosmic perspective of the infinite and of death…In another context I affirmed that dogma is a revealed mystery (Lalande)”[2] Jared should not be surprised that I eagerly embrace both the known and the unknown and find great comfort and fulfillment in both; I feel no need to defend either one because I have no stake in modernism.
The problem therefore is not necessarily an empirical one, but a dogmatic, personal one: a personification of our individual and eternal struggles between certainty and doubt, between the individual and the group. And this is where I feel like I failed Jared, and in fact I feel responsible for his slide to some extent. I encouraged Jared to explore his doubts, confront certainty and question the status quo. The problem is that I left him there. Doubts, just as faith, should be expressed and confronted as a community, not as individuals. I don’t want to be arrogant enough to imagine that I have that much influence on one’s thinking, but I am hoping that at least now Jared is listening. Operating under the unconscious herding behavior, modern Christianity has epitomized the condemnation of doubting and of doubters. Commenting on this, Robert Prechter says, “Falling into line with others for self-preservation involves not only the pursuit of positive values but also the avoidance of negative values, in which case the emotions reinforcing herding behavior are even stronger. Reptiles and birds harass strangers. A flock of poultry will peck to death any individual bird that has wounds or blemishes. Likewise, humans can be a threat to each other if there are perceived differences between them.”[3] Psychology professor Irving Janis from Yale University also studied the methodology of decision making in modern political settings and concluded, “In general, the greater the number of those in the decision maker’s social network who are aware of the decision, the more powerful the incentive to avoid the social disapproval that might result from a reversal…the greater the commitment to a prior decision, the greater the anticipated utilitarian losses, social disapproval and self-disapproval from failing to continue the present course of action and hence a greater degree of stress.”[4]
This kind of behavior has prompted a vast majority of believers to internalize doubt for fear of being castigated, therefore allowing them to fall victims to their very own Sunday-morning-manifestations of Descartian propositional knowledge statements: I know, therefore I believe! i.e. When we all know, we believe! It is therefore no surprise that Jared wakes up one morning proclaiming: I do not know, therefore I do not believe! If that is the Christianity Jared would be rejecting, then I join him saying: that is bullshit-religion and I do not want a part of it or of its god. But he is not; Jared is rejecting the known mysterious gaps or the “known unknowable” under the label of ignorance, so in essence no level of not-knowing will ever be acceptable in that context; at least that is the consistent consequence of his position.
Not surprisingly therefore, it is uncertainty, which Jared rejects empirically as the un-knowable, while certainty and the knowable become the de-facto philosophical litmus test for an existence of God. But is there that much value in the knowable or is Jared exchanging one prison for another? Even Bertrand Russell agrees that this approach is not workable: “The value of philosophy is, in fact, to be sought largely in its very uncertainty. The man who has no tincture of philosophy goes through life imprisoned in the prejudices derived from common sense, from the habitual beliefs of his age or his nation, and from convictions which have grown up in his mind without the co-operation or consent of his deliberate reason. To such a man the world tends to become definite, finite, obvious; common objects rouse to questions, and unfamiliar possibilities are contemptuously rejected.”[5]
And if I can take this line of thinking to its consistent end, should Jared continue to invoke empiricism as his reason for rejecting God, he should consistently also reject his-self as a result; it is a necessary and natural conclusion. Hardcore empiricist David Hume argued – quite effectively in my opinion – that the self is elusive and not-evident through our number of sense perceptions: “When I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perceptions.”[6]
Anyone using empiricism as a basis to leave faith needs to explore all the implications of this kind of approach and explore further even the more contemporary studies of self identity, like the work of Derek Parfit which stands in opposition to Descartes’ rationalization of self-doubting as proof of self-existence: I think does not necessarily mean that I am. In essence, Jared first needs to convince himself that he exists before he becomes convinced that God does not.
In addition, as I already hinted above, Jared has created a false dichotomy between empiricism and faith, which is readily apparent to anyone reading his article and comments. I would agree with the supposition that “empiricism is detrimental to faith” if no additional reference points were available to us. But we do not exist in a vacuum; therefore the claim is neither analytic nor demonstrable. Jared’s statement “empiricism is detrimental to faith” fails itself on empirical, experimental grounds! His empirical experiences are his own only, not mine or yours, otherwise “frogs are detrimental to faith” would also stand. His personal incredulity argument fails fallaciously: empiricism was detrimental to my faith; therefore it is mutually exclusive to faith. In this same context, Jared also mentioned something to the effect of “God never answered my prayers, thus God does not exist.” This argumentum is ad ignorantiam and cannot stand. And Leonard Sweet said, “Belief is Plato; faith is Jesus.” So where does mystery stand or fall?
The suggestion is that the weakness of religion in general and Christianity in particular is to be found in its mystery (also referred to as “ignorance” by Jared) and its propositional truth, but I should point out that the power of Christianity (at least postmodern Christianity) is found not in the propositional truth of the religion itself or even the religious writings themselves, but since “there is nothing outside of the text,” in the power of the story, or the narrative. After all, even Lyotard acknowledged the narrative power and characteristic of Christianity, as James K. A. Smith recognized and wrote in this context: “Christian faith – unlike almost any other world religion (with the exception of Judaism) – is not a religion simply of ideas that have been collected. The faith is inextricably linked to the events and story of God’s redemptive action in the world: Christian faith rests on the work of the Word, who ‘suffered under Pontius Pilate,’ and that work can only be properly proclaimed by being narrated, by telling a story. The notion of reducing Christian faith to four spiritual laws signals a deep capitulation to scientific knowledge, whereas postmodernism signals the recovery of a narrative knowledge and should entail a more robust, unapologetic proclamation of the story of God in Christ. This is why the Scriptures must remain central for the postmodern church, for it is precisely the story of the canon of Scripture that narrates our faith.”[7]
The intriguing thing about this interaction with Jared is the fact that Jared on one hand claims that empiricism, the unknown, the gaps, did his faith in while on the other hand he readily accepts that there will always be things we will be unable to know empirically. I know that Jared does not mean to come across as disingenuous, but such position is philosophically unassailable and seemingly disingenuous. One cannot simply make empirical demands and shrug-off the failure to deliver answers. If the existence of God fails because of a lack of empirical evidence, then no number of gaps should be acceptable. In fact, what is the line where one can say: that is an acceptable level of ignorance or mystery? When and where is Jared willing to draw that line, and on what basis will be line be drawn?
For me, the power of faith is in its mystery, so paradoxically the gaps are there to balance out my inherent thirst and desire for cold certainty. The tension has always been there and it will always be there; it is seemingly an essential part of our existence. It is the unending ocean and its mystery which motivates us to build ships to sail; it is the mystery of the space which motivates us to build rockets to soar into space and it is the mystery of faith which motivates us to kneel down in prayer before an unseen God. Derrida himself recognized that “believing implies some atheism, however paradoxically it may sound.”[8] We can then reason that Derrida would lend credence to the idea that “atheism implies some belief, however paradoxically it may sound.” So Jared can rightly pass for a true believer still, however paradoxically it may sound, especially when “all true belief needs to be exposed to absolute atheism.”[9]
In relation to the assessment that his life would be no different if he did not believe in God, there is little new to this disconnect between faith and life that he is experiencing. The modern Christian understanding of justification as being “by grace alone” is almost always implying that one’s faith has nothing to do with what kind of person he is and how he lives his life. This is what Dallas Willard calls “the gospel of sin management” – the idea that essentially, the message of Christianity is concerned only with how to deal with sin. “Life, our actual existence, is not included in what is now presented as the heart of the Christian message, or it is included only marginally.”[10] Again, it is this version of Christianity that Jared is railing against. But this version is wrong, impotent, and irrelevant; the narrative of the Kingdom is not about sin management or about waking up on the correct side of the bed every morning. It rather is about emulating a Creator within our own realms of influence, namely our homes and families. Being unable to observe a change in one’s life as a result of being a follower of Christ has a lot less to do with one’s religiosity or faith and a lot more to do with one’s willingness to exert a Creator’s influence in the lives of his family members, as a Husband, Wife, Father or Mother. The story is not about me as a closed-system ego; the story is about me as a Creator-Father. The results of “belief in God” may not be readily apparent from the sin-management perspective; but how is Jared doing as a husband and father? Perhaps Jared is closer to God than he realizes; his relationship with his wife, his love for her is (whether he likes it or not) a manifested difference in his life of his “belief in God.” So yes, God is speaking French (I am speaking figuratively here of course), the language of love, and many of us are getting pretty good at learning it; we may consult a lexicon or grammar book once in a great while, have a hard time conjugating verbs, but that does not change the story: we still are Lovers, Fathers, Husbands, all fighting for love. Nothing short of emulating the Divine story: Cet amour? Je le sais tellement bien! (That love? I know it so well!) And Jared does too; he just doesn’t see the progress he wants and expects!
But Jared’s demand of progress from faith is not unreasonable at all, at least outside of the sin-management framework; it is not unreasonable to ask “what do I get in exchange?” It is in fact what Jesus taught: Have faith and you will grow and progress in your understanding, your relationships and your lives…your entire world and existence will improve – faith, just as doubt, is a mass human activity as I already pointed out above. But progress, for lack of a better word, is never steady, it is rather punctuated. To again quote socionomist Robert R. Prechter, Jr., “...were there no fluctuation, there would be no progress...progress must include setbacks and net change over time. From the point of view of a participant, punctuated progress is the only kind of progress that is possible to perceive.”[11] While Prechter is writing in the context of stock markets theory and prediction, the principle applies to all facets of our lives. Using the Ralph Nelson Elliott’s wave principle, it becomes evident that progress can only take place at a minimum pace of “three steps forward and two steps back,” giving us a net progress that many may not be satisfied with. The repeating 5-3 wave sequence is everywhere around us and it reflects the Fibonacci sequence, so there you have it: sound empiricism at work all around us, empiricism which Jared can use to justify both, his faith progress or lack thereof; unfortunately Jared chose the latter.
Despite what the God of the gaps idea is implying, and despite what Jared is getting out of it, the paradoxical quest for knowledge is always confounding: the more we know, the less we understand. I want to be the last to speculate on reasons for this, but when I look at Jared’s journey I do not see him sliding back into atheism at all. I rather see Jared sliding back into modernism, demanding certainty, demanding linear progress, demanding absolutes he ultimately knows none of us can ever deliver—he set us, and himself up to fail, not maliciously, but perhaps unknowingly (how ironic that I have to use that word now). Jared – I am saying in jest of course – is a backsliding postmodern, not a backsliding Christian. He is rejecting a modern god who is dead, and belief system that is bankrupt. Just as I do, he is rejecting a modern, apologetic Christianity that has become a set of statements which are intellectually assailable or intellectually defensible, thus intellectually fallible.
To subtly restate something I already said, God was dead, and Christian modern-intellectualism killed him; the good news is that the mystery brought my dead faith back to life. I hope the same will be the case for my dear friend Jared Coleman.
Footnotes:
[1] Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison
[2] Petre Tutea, Intre Dumnezeu si Neamul Meu (Between God and my Nation), p. 54
[3] Robert R. Prechter, Jr., The Wave Principle of Human Social Behavior and the New Science of Socionomics, p. 156
[4] Irving Janis (1972), Victims of groupthink
[5] Betrand Russell, The Value of Philosophy
[6] David Hume, A Treatise on Human Nature, Vol. 1, p. 534
[7] James K. A. Smith, Who is Afraid of Postmodernism, p. 75
[8] Jacques Derrida, Atheism and Belief, 2002 Toronto “Other Testaments Conference”
[9] Jacques Derrida, Atheism and Belief, 2002 Toronto “Other Testaments Conference”
[10] Dallas Willard, The Divine Conspiracy, p. 41
[11] Robert R. Prechter, Jr., The Wave Principle of Human Social Behavior and the New Science of Socionomics, p. 28
------
Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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'God of the Gaps’ is a straw man to begin with (Score: 1)
by Parker on Monday, May 12 @ 11:26:47 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I guess the discussion has moved here?
"God of the gaps" is a false understanding of the world to begin with, Jared. So, to disprove it is to simply have destroyed a straw man.
Like Dawkins and others, Jared is confusing mechanism (knowing how something mechanically functions) with agency (knowing who designed a thing to work as such or even why it exists at all). To understand how a tree functions does not at all remove God from the situation any more than understanding gas engines removes Toyota from the situation. A strictly materialistic approach to science can never answer how the complicated machines and blueprints latent in the seed came to be or why they exist at all (unless you believe that matter can create itself out of nothing by accident, which is absurd).
The atheist's faith-based mantra that complex living things created themselves out of nothing by accident is irrational and unsupportable. By every standard of observation and reason, highly complex designs and laws in the physical creation must be engineered by Intelligence--they cannot and do not create themselves. To believe otherwise is to be embracing pure mythology and irrationality unsupported by any science whatsoever.
Hitchens is right that a great many religious folk live superstitious lives divorced from reason. But faith and reason are made to work in tandem, and so Hitchens' arguments fall flat when debating Theists like Dinesh D'Souza. I strongly recommend that you, Jared, listen to the Hitchen-D'Souza debates, as well as the Dawkins-Lennox debate.
The D'Souza-Hitchens Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-NduvegITQ
http://www.tkc.edu/debate/
Dawkins-Lennox Debate
http://stevebishop.blogspot.com/2007/10/lennox-dawkins-debate-audio.html
Finally I will restate three things for Jared to think on:
One, atheism is based on the assertion that the universe created itself out of nothing by accident. The assertion is irrational and unsupported by evidence or reason.
Two, Christ and the apostles launched a new form of Judaism that providentially detached from Temple, tribal lineages, animal sacrifices, and the priestly class of Aaron in anticipation of their impending extinction from history. History fully vindicated their expectation with the soon extinction of the Old Covenant distinctives, proving that Jesus and his apostles were prescient. (For no person can predict the future with such precision, apart from Divine intervention.)
Three, atheism has no basis for human rights whatsoever. If man is merely a randomly evolved animal undirected by any Intelligence, then it is illogical to assert that killing, and rape, and incest, and theft are proper for all other animals except for man. Either we must imprison animals for such acts or we must admit that such acts are proper and natural for humans.
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- by Virgil on Monday, May 12 @ 11:45:22 PDT
Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by tom-g on Monday, May 12 @ 13:01:52 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
Who is the person that is more loving and caring for Jared's eternal soul?
A person who believes Jared never had faith? By accepting Jared's own words of his personal identification as an atheist, and in his failure to ever mention the person and name of our Lord Christ Jesus, the name that is above any other name, the only King of Kings and Lord of Lords as the only one in whom faith exists. The only one at whose name every knee bows in Heaven, in earth and under the earth.
Or, those who give hope preaching man's philosophies. Fortunately we are not left in doubt from God's word. In his second letter, Peter tells us 2:20-22 the answer to that.
I for one, sincerely hope that you and Jared are wrong, and that he did not once have faith. For it is far better that he had not known the way of righteousness than to be entangled in the pollutions of the world again. His latter end as one who had faith and left it to return to atheism is too horrible to contemplate.
Tom |
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- by jaredcoleman on Tuesday, May 13 @ 16:27:09 PDT
- by chrisliv on Wednesday, May 14 @ 11:05:48 PDT
- by jaredcoleman on Wednesday, May 14 @ 15:31:52 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, May 14 @ 17:05:40 PDT
- by jaredcoleman on Friday, May 16 @ 09:46:04 PDT
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- by MiddleKnowledge on Sunday, May 18 @ 12:22:16 PDT
- by jaredcoleman on Sunday, May 18 @ 14:32:21 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Sunday, May 18 @ 19:37:47 PDT
- by chrisliv on Wednesday, May 14 @ 22:26:58 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, May 15 @ 07:42:07 PDT
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Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by Ozark on Monday, May 12 @ 14:04:47 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | God is a Person, not a theory. Why not treat Him as such? The scriptures more than suggest the God is a God who is intimately involved in our lives. We see new testament imagery such as the vine and the branches and the temple of the Holy Spirit that illustrate just how close God is. We see Paul’s great discourses which describe our participation in Christ. If the scriptures are true, God is never absent. He never stops giving Himself to us. However, we may not recognize His presence. His hand upon our lives may not look like we think it should.
Years ago I was in the midst of an illness that seemed to have no end in sight. It had lasted two years. I was tired, broken down, and not living was beginning to look more appealing than going on. I had fought the “good fight of faith,” but I didn’t have any left. I still recall one of the strangest prayers I have ever prayed. I told the Lord I thought He was a SOB, and I was not going to believe in Him anymore. Telling God you are not going to believe in Him anymore may seem like a contradiction, but I thought if God was a Person who was really there, I wanted to let Him know what I thought of Him.
You would think God would reject such an arrogant outburst. He didn’t. All I can say is that He acted like the God who wrote the Sermon on the Mount. He showed up. He loved someone who at that moment hated Him. He made Himself known to someone who had no faith left. This was a beginning of a shift in my understanding of how to relate to God.
I used to think that God never answered my prayers. It seemed that the things I wanted most in life, He went out of His way to make sure I didn’t get them. However, I began to see in the midst of not getting what I wanted God was giving me something far greater, Himself. Likewise, I can confidently say that all my great efforts to get close to God or to find God have been failures. Yet, in the midst of my failure, He was giving Himself to me. If I had gained what I wanted, I never would have the kingdom. If I was a success at religion, I never would have known grace. If I was a success at theology, I never would have known God.
God’s hand never looked like I thought it should. God never did what I thought He should do. Instead, He acted like God and gave Himself to someone who was doing His best to replace God. God’s hand was there. I just didn’t recognize it. God’s love was real. I just couldn’t comprehend it. Now, increasingly, it is becoming all I see.
You look at how God treated His servants in the Bible, and you might be tempted to think God hated them. Moses had his years as an insignificant sheep herder. Joseph spent time in an Egyptian prison. David lived in caves just after the Lord had promised him he would live in a palace. And Paul! Read all that happened to him. He was beaten, stoned, and shipwrecked. Think about the shipwrecked part. God sends you somewhere, and He does not even bother to get your ship there. You could easily conclude that God did not like the guy or that God just wasn’t around. Yet, we know the end of the story.
Perhaps these are Jared’s years in the cave, the time it looks like God is not there. Yet, we know He is. At the right time, God will tap our brother on the shoulder, and say “Here I am.” At that moment Jared will see that God is there, and that He has always been there.
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Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Monday, May 12 @ 15:27:45 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | Well done Virgil. |
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Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Monday, May 12 @ 17:42:02 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
In all the years I have hung out here at PP and have read your articles, I can honestly say that I have not seen anything so powerful than what you have put together in this article.
Thanks for your effort. I do not know what the full effect of this will be (nor does anyone since PP is an open forum), but this article is stellar.
Modernism has committed murder in order to dissect. A living, experiential faith is the key to the practice of resurrection in our lives at the very times when we sense death and demoralization. Life is dynamic and full of twists and turns.
The way this world works is profound and mysterious. That is not to say it is unreasonable or chaotic. God made it to work this way, even with the potential for death and pain from the very beginning. Can you imagine a world where there was no struggle or danger or awe? Would you want to live in it?
I wouldn't.
Jared's story is serving a wider purpose...
Blessings
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
P.S. FWIW, I would call David Hume a skeptic, not an empiricist. |
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- by Virgil on Monday, May 12 @ 19:20:25 PDT
... (Score: 1)
by KingNeb on Monday, May 12 @ 19:42:31 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Paradoxical unknown knowables, empirical punctuated gaps and stock market psychobabble asise....Jared, it's quite easy:
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Testimony Concerning the Son of God
6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
......
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
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By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
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And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
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Jared, some real heart to heart talk in plain english. You are man who questions God's word. You are man who has forsaken what God says about reality and think that you can someone figure it out on your own. You are deceived.
Screw Bertrand Russell, screw Derrida, screw Petre Tutea, and screw punctuated progress.
Put down the books, pick up your Bible, read what God has to say about your condition, throw yourself at His feet and ask for the gift of faith and repent.
If the simplicity of the Gospel offends you or anyone else here, so be it. But God has spoken Jared. You know this and you know where to find Him...it is as simple as that.
You either believe what God has said or you don't. |
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wow (Score: 1)
by flannery0 on Tuesday, May 13 @ 06:53:33 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
Thank you for this. I can't tell you how close to home this hits for me.
(btw, thank you, Tim, for your very comforting and inspiring comments, which directed me to read Virgil's piece.)
Only 2 weeks ago, one of my best friends came out to me as an atheist. I suppose the greatest comfort and hope I can take from the conversation is that we were even closer by the end of it. There is hope because I am not just going to "leave him there". I especially hope everyone listens to this because it is critical:
"...The problem is that I left him there.Doubts, just as faith, should be expressed and confronted as a community, not as individuals...Operating under the unconscious herding behavior, modern Christianity has epitomized the condemnation of doubting and of doubters. Commenting on this, Robert Prechter says, “Falling into line with others for self-preservation involves not only the pursuit of positive values but also the avoidance of negative values, in which case the emotions reinforcing herding behavior are even stronger. Reptiles and birds harass strangers. A flock of poultry will peck to death any individual bird that has wounds or blemishes. Likewise, humans can be a threat to each other if there are perceived differences between them.”[3]"
May we all lose our religion if our religion is causing us to peck each other to death.
Thanks again, Virgil. |
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Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by Scotty on Tuesday, May 13 @ 07:07:25 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
I grow tired of the loose use of superlatives, but I feel justified in saying: "This article/response is AWESOME!" Like you, even though it seems to frustrate some, I daily grow more comfortable in my faith by embracing the words of Paul, expressed with complete conviction to Timothy, when he wrote: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness" (1 Tim. 3:16). For Paul there was no modernistic inconsistency between the fact that "God is" and that "God is mystery."
While those who know me know that I appreciate the power of logic and reason, the god who is limited to syllogistic definition and enterprise is the god we see in the mirror. I believe that is witnessed in no greater way than the incessant judgmental disposition of many within the ranks of preterism toward those who do not define faith issues in agreement with their faith definitions; even though, their faith definitions have been steadily changing and morphing for years. A process that they intuitively know-if they're honest-is far from finished.
There was for Paul no contradiction between a rock solid conviction that "God was manifested in the flesh,justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory" and "great is the mystery of godliness." He was convinced of both propositions, even though by modernistic (and Jared's) definitions, what Paul says is self-contradictory.
It would appear to me, at least from a purely philosophical framework, that Jared (whom I love and respect) cannot say, as it seems he wants to say, that "I am an atheist." To do so would require the very foundation/type of knowledge that he claims the "absence of" has led to his rejection of God. I'm sorry Jared, you can't have it both ways. The doubt that leads you to say "god isn't" is the same doubt that honestly must lead you say "God just might be." At best Jared's article is a portrayal of an activist agnosticism at worst an indifferent one. I'm hopeful it's the former.
Jared your doubts and search do not frighten me, although from other perspectives it saddens me. My prayer (heartfelt hope for you agnostics) is that our transparency regarding our own struggles and connection with doubt, yet with an end result of greater faith will keep you digging, searching and knocking my Brother.
With Love, Respect & Friendship
Jack Scott |
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Nasty treatment of each other? (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, May 13 @ 12:36:59 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | First, I admire Jared for being willing to share his article with all the folks reading this website. It takes a lot of courage to open up as he did before a bunch of people like us, knowing that we will rip everything he wrote apart in order to find something wrong with what he said, mock him or opportunistically use his words to prove each other wrong.
Yikes! I hope that's not how others see us here, Virgil. I certainly don't see this kind of reaction to open honesty being the standard at Planet Preterist, but certainly one always runs the risk of being villified for publicly declaring doubts of the nature Jared outlined in his article. I really hope we are capable of - and actually engage in - much more generous, open, charitable dialogue than your statement seems to indicate. After all...that's the primary value of this site.
John |
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Re: ‘God of the gaps’ did my dead faith in (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman (jaredcoleman@gmail.com) on Tuesday, May 13 @ 16:21:27 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil:
I am very unimpressed; you have beaten down a straw man. I don't even know where to begin, because while you acknowledged in your opening paragraph that my piece (which was written for my friends who read my blog) was descriptive in nature and not meant to be an argument, you then went on to force my statements into a logical structure of your own creation so that you could then destroy this structure. For example, I never said anything like, "God never answered my prayers, thus God does not exist." Actually, I said, "I had long since abandoned prayer because it seemed useless: first, because this 'God of the gaps' had no more gaps, and second, because empirically I learned that both good and bad things happened to me whether I prayed or not, and seemingly in the same proportion." Forcing my description into the form of a logical argument is misleading and makes me look foolish (as if I think I can prove that God does not exist!). When you asked if I would mind if you wrote a response to the things that I said I didn't realize that you were going to respond to a bunch of things that I hadn't said, or I would have responded that I indeed did mind.
Another case in point: I am not the Cartesian that you make me out to be. Nowhere in that piece did I demand certainty. Actually, I just searched for the word "certain" in the original and it is nowhere to be found - not only did I not demand it, but I didn't even mention it. I never even used the word "evidence", although I could have - but even if I had, to ask for evidence is NOT to demand certainty. You are not the first person to make me out as a backslidden postmodern as soon as I talk about reason or evidence in regard to my lack of faith. WTF? This apparent identification of reason with modernism scares me... is reason not valuable at all to a postmodern? I am (almost) speechless. Did you not read that my favorite philopsopher is still Michael Polanyi? I thought you had read Personal Knowledge. Do you think think that I forgot about the problem of induction?
Yet another example that you have made a straw man: you said,
"In relation to the assessment that his life would be no different if he did not believe in God, there is little new to this disconnect between faith and life that he is experiencing. The modern Christian understanding of justification as being “by grace alone” is almost always implying that one’s faith has nothing to do with what kind of person he is and how he lives his life. This is what Dallas Willard calls “the gospel of sin management” – the idea that essentially, the message of Christianity is concerned only with how to deal with sin. “Life, our actual existence, is not included in what is now presented as the heart of the Christian message, or it is included only marginally.”[10] Again, it is this version of Christianity that Jared is railing against. But this version is wrong, impotent, and irrelevant; the narrative of the Kingdom is not about sin management or about waking up on the correct side of the bed every morning. It rather is about emulating a Creator within our own realms of influence, namely our homes and families."
The reason that my life would be no different, as I made perfectly clear, was due to 1) the God-of-the-gaps nature of my faith, and 2) the fact that my morality was derived from humanistic rather than religious sources. I had long since jettisoned a "sin management" theology in favor of the sort of theology which you subsequently described, and so it had nothing at all to do with this realization of mine. In other words, I realized that I was motivated to volunteer at our local homeless shelter by simple humanistic compassion, even though my theology called me to join with God in this work of love. You act like my problem was just that I never understood the Gospel. I did not reject the modern gospel of salvation by grace alone as ultimately bankrupt. I rejected a Gospel which is probably indistinguishable from th
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The Test of Truth (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, May 14 @ 05:23:33 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Jared,
I have read your blog and Virgil's response. I do have a relatively simple question that comes to mind.
Would you be a professing Christian if the Resurrection of Jesus Christ actually happened?
If not, why not?
Perhaps this event (if it happened) would be a "gap" in your view? Do you expect resurrection from the dead to be explained scientifically at some point in the future?
I assume that you deny the Resurrection of Jesus actually happened, but, as I see it, this raises a difficult problem for you. It boils down to this question:
"What evidence do you offer that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ did NOT happen?"
If you want to understand my question more fully, please consider this article:
http://74.255.56.30/blog/?p=84
Blessings,
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
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